Ukrainian troops ‘quick’ to learn to fight with British tanks

These tanks have been provided to Ukraine by the United Kingdom as part of their efforts to assist the country in defending their homeland and regaining control of the territory that has been lost.

It is a testament to the dedication and proficiency of the Ukrainian tank crews that they have been able to quickly become familiar with the intricate workings of these powerful vehicles.

Challenger 2 tanks are widely considered to be among the most advanced and capable battle tanks in the world, and their deployment to Ukraine represents a significant enhancement to the country's military capabilities.

Tank crews from the Armed Forces of Ukraine have been quick to master the controls of the mighty Challenger 2 this week.

The UK is providing Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine to help them defend their homeland and retake territory.@DefenceU

🇺🇦 #StandWithUkraine 🇺🇦 pic.twitter.com/iHiOmqR14U

— Ministry of Defence 🇬🇧 (@DefenceHQ) February 4, 2023

As the Armed Forces of Ukraine continue to face significant challenges in their ongoing efforts to secure their nation, the addition of these powerful tanks to their arsenal will undoubtedly play a vital role in helping them achieve their goals.

The UK's provision of these tanks is a clear demonstration of their commitment to supporting Ukraine in their quest for peace and stability.

The most recent UK contribution to Ukraine is as follows:

"United Kingdom: The United Kingdom's accelerated package consists of a squadron of Challenger 2 tanks with armoured recovery and repair vehicles; AS90 self-propelled 155mm guns, while preserving their commitment in Estonia; hundreds more armoured and protected vehicles; a manoeuvre support package, including minefield breaching and bridging capabilities; dozens more un-crewed aerial systems to support Ukrainian artillery; another 100,000 artillery rounds; hundreds more sophisticated missiles including GMLRS rockets, Starstreak air defence missiles, and medium range air defence missiles; 600 Brimstone anti-tank munitions; an equipment support package of spares to refurbish up to a hundred Ukrainian tanks and infantry fighting vehicles.

The package is further augmented by continuing basic training and junior leadership training for the AFU in the UK with 9 International partners. With the aim of training around a further 20 000 AFU personnel in 2023. The UK is also coordinating the International Fund for Ukraine which has raised almost £600M with partners. The first package of support from the fund will be announced shortly."

You can see the entire list by clicking here.

Δ

Δ

George you already posted this in 5 February.

George this is old hat, check 5 February …

Isn't this need like a week old already?

It will be interesting to see how the HESH round does against Russian armour

What it was designed to do, mess up anything less than an MBT with spaced or Composite armour or spall liners.

Didn't the CR1s fire HESH in Gulf War 1? As I recall the CR1s notched up over 300 kills against Iraqi Soviet-era tanks for zero losses.

Longest recorded tank hit in GW1 was challenger 1 using HESH round.

Between 4.7 and 5.1km according to different sources, still a record in either case. I thought that was using a L26A1 APFSDS round with a DU dart – 12 issued to each tank specifically for use against T72s.

Would be good to get some C1s, as many as Jordan has left that are serviceable, those that aren't serviceable scavenge for spares, then refurbish them and send them to Ukraine. Seems a complete nonsense that we haven't already done that. C1s will still make an absolute mess of Russian armoured vehicles and all known tanks except perhaps the T14 Aramata, although the fact no Aramatas have been sent to Ukraine is telling.

Won't they keep the HESH rounds for attacking bunkers/strong points?

Likely yes. HESH is still a great round. They may also use them against lighter vehicles, indeed anything short of an mbt, hesh is round of choice in many cases.

Do the smoothbore boys have a secondary round that can bunker-bust?

There are choices available, that while not HESH per se Bunker Busting would not be a problem – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/120%C3%97570mm_NATO#High_Explosive_(HE)

I’m no expert on land warfare, not my area at all, but isn't the key thing to avoid using the Chally2 as a howitzer? Thereby conserving ammunition stocks?

I suspect our gifting of Chally2 was limited by ammunition stocks. Or did we manage to buy some back from the Omani's?

Usual idiotic article in the Torygraph from Lewis Page saying the Chally2 wasn't much use, unreliable. Maybe the early examples were but I thought that once it was properly understood and a few fixes implemented reliability shot up?

Probably talking about CR1 which we’re having some problems because of lack of spares,lack of cash spent etc in BAOR! But when they went to war in the gulf with the proper support packages they were bloody good!

That was what I’d heard too.

Chally 2 is not much use as a howitzer – it is a direct fire weopan and is not 155mm for a start! But if bunkers/strongpoints appear in an advance to contact, then it is good to know you have a shell that can take it out, otherwise your tank crew may end up ‘as toast’. Oman bought a mere 38 tanks compared to our 386 – I doubt they will have an enormous pile of ammunition. Reliability? What are the details of the story? Clearly after 25 years service reliability won't be what it was. But prior to ISD… Read more »

The Howitzer comment was more sideways at the way the Russians use their tanks to blast out weight of munitions.

I once knew a guy who ran a construction company – his metric for success was the number of vans he had on the road.

Presumably the Russians measure success at the gross weight of munitions thrown in the vague direction of the where the opposition might be?

Apparently the Russians have been using their remaining tanks as artillery – partly due to artillery shell shortages and partly because when they use them as tanks they lose them 😆

Any predictions Farouk?

That the Ukranians are getting isCh2s good, its a damned good tank. Lets do it in numbers for example to form an Armoured Brigade with 56 Ch2s plus say 112 Warriors. These to be used in a single formation or four Armoured Battle Groups of 14 Ch2s and 28 Warriors each. With each Battlegroup having a battery of 6 AS-90s and 2 M270s plus a mobile air defence system these could be hard hitting battlegroups or combined for a Brigade strength punch.God I know that I would not want to be on the recieving end of 8 M270s, 24 AS-90s… Read more »

Rheinmetall has been thinking of only supplying KF51 Panther to existing Leopard users – it's mainly a new turret on Leopard chassis. So placing a large order for these might help persuade Rheinmetall to build a full production line in the U.K., and without any current orders from elsewhere it could even become their main line for the Panther.

How many tanks Will be finally sended? , Britain has a shortage of tanks, I think máximum 250 mbt operational , It,s a dangerous policy to follow this policy and leave the country unarmed simply because It,s the order of U.S. Russia still is able to start an invasion of eastern Europe , maybe in the short term China attacks Taiwán , don,t forget the Falklands defence so better to preserve these armament for the defence of Britain instead to leave the country without arms to protect It . Britain defence budget is overstretched as usual, with a coming defence… Read more »

And who is going to land , unapposed and undetected on the UK shores with Tanks for the CH2 to fight? Falklands isnt threatened by anyone. Whats there can look after themselves using MPA and the airbridge. An SSN will control access and be able to sink anything that floats that wants to go there. Taiwan? How do we get tanks there? By the time we decided to do anything it will be a Air and Sea battle not a land battle. In NATO Let Poland , Germany etc concentrate on Land Battle stuff with there own heavy metal. UK… Read more »

God forbid "Gunbuster". Do you not know I have friends at Horse-Guards, and based on your proposal they will have nothing to do but ride around St James park to the great delight of all the ladies out strolling with their maiden Aunts. 😃

GET AWAY FROM THE REINS!!

They do that already! Polishing all that Leather and shiny metal is a bit Fetishistic if you ask me!

Well put Gunbuster.

About the most sensible comment on here for ages.

Great post, GB! Plus 72-ton MBTs are no good in the Falklands – they will sink! How would we get tanks to Taiwan? Presumably the same way we got tanks to Korea and Suez and the Gulf (twice) – by sea. But I for one do not think saving Taiwan from Chinese aggression is really our fight – let the US and the ASEAN nations deal with that – also would be a good idea to resurrect SEATO. We are a European power, with friends and Allies on the Continent. We should bring everything we have to deter and if… Read more »

This war has shown how linked our economy is to all sorts of places we hadn't thought about. The increased prices in food and fuel still hit us even though we don't buy much of either from Ukraine or Russia. If you buy on the open global market it doesn't matter where the shortages occur, they still end up at your front door. The UK is a technologically advanced country. If you think food and fuel were bad for our economy, a war between China and Taiwan will be devastating. It won't just be knock on effects from the global… Read more »

So this then justifies the Global Britain tag, and our blue water navy. Do we need RM, RAF and Army to be configured accordingly?

I disagree, Taiwan is our fight from a geopolitical stand point if nothing else. Crimea has shown that every tin pot dictator that gets away with ignoring international law will be back and what is more, encourage another dictator to try a bit of map redrawing. A breach of international law should always be met by a strong international force against it.

Define ‘international law’ please?

Respect for other countries rights (Article 51 of the Untied Nations Charter reinforces this) and not murdering their citizens in their own homes (that is just common decency) – did Putin's unprovoked invasion of Ukraine pass you by unnoticed?

I’m really pleased that you mentioned Article 51 as that is exactly the legal cover that Russia has claimed in protecting the Russian speakers in Eastern Ukraine.

Maybe you wondered why they went about it, compared to say US ‘Shock and Awe’ so restrained? The Special Military Operation was and is not some mere propaganda meme but a legal act by the Russians under the international law doctrine of pre-emptive self defense and humanitarian intervention. So the military action was, as it must be legally, both proportionate and justified.

I am sure all the Ukraine citizens without heat or power will be very thankful. The hospitals schools and civilian targets hit intentionally all the people murdered and women raped will all thank the Russians for their " restraint"

They’re making an absolute shit show of it, couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery let alone conduct a professional military operation. This special operation as you call it has shown the Russian Bear is nothing more than a tin pot fighting force that's having its arse handed to it on a plate by the Ukrainian forces. Like turkeys at a shooting range’: Mauling of Russian forces in Donetsk hotspot may signal problems to come "Russian military bloggers are calling it a fiasco, and worse. These scenes have been recorded by Ukrainian military drones over the past two weeks around… Read more »

Russia's invasion of 2014 violated Ukraine's sovereignty by direct aggression. The way to resolve all such questions (Spain, Cyprus, Kurdistan, Israel and Palestine, etc.,) is by negotiation. However, Putin has no position to negotiate from which is why he is waging war against civilians whilst his rag tag ‘army’ is being thrashed. But war mongers like you don't worry about such matters.

I do have to congratulate you however on deciding at long last to be honest about your objective support for this war on the side of the aggressor.

Nope. Completely wrong. More bullshit from you.

You missed out on the coup in 2014 and the Ukrainian Nazis massacre in the Donbass.

Barry Larkin put it better than I could. Basically one country should not invade another.

It's not our fight. Realistically no one will go on their support, anyone that thinks the US would is kidding themselves. They are too close to China mainland meaning anyone trying to help would have to deal with the whole Chinese air force, and as close by, disel subs would be everywhere not to mention in range of land based anti ship missies, making carriers very risky, death toll potential would be massive. No one in the west has a desire for that level of loss from a war far away. It would be vietnam mrk2. Not to mention the… Read more »

Then we will politely agree to disagree, as far as I am concerned, it is our fight!!

Got some justification to that? We have a war going on in Europe, so in our back yard that has had significant impact on our economy and yet we aren't going to war with Russia. Why would we go to war for a nation the other side of the world that has significantly less impact on our economy? Especially when going to war with China would completely destroy our economy for generations to come.

Don't get me wrong going to war to defend our allies is the morally right thing to do, but life is rarely that simple.

Fortunately the USA does not share you parochial view.

So they currently have forces on the ground in Ukraine? Or in Taiwan? Or did they do anything following the occupation of crimea that stopped the current war?

The US is playing a massive game of bluff with China over taiwan. China must know they won't get involved but equally must be concerned that if public perception/outcry gets too much that they could and so it would be a gamble. China knows it would have a rough time if it took on the US, even in it's back yard with the US at max range.

Clearly respecting another persons opinion and agreeing to disagree is not in your gift!

The Americans are giving huge amounts of aid to Ukraine. A war, by your narrow view, is a European problem and nothing to do with them.

I am just giving you a counter view.

There is a big difference between supplying arms and going to war. A decision to go to war is a major one, one that polictics and public opinion matter more than anything else.

Then once again, politics abd public opinion play just as big a part in supplying aid as they do in direct conflict.

However you have your opinion and I have mine, all I am going to say on the matter!!

For now concentrate on what we do well and can do well better than almost anyone else in NATO. A CSG in the north interdicting subs and surface units. If needs be flattening port facilities and airfields around from the North Cape. When BAOR/ RAFG was a thing yes we had lots of heavy metal ready to go. Now we are not permanently there and need to contribute in a smarter way. Whats wrong with 60 Brimstone 3 on the back of a DROPS type truck behind the FEOB and letting them fly. Which would get rid of more enemy… Read more »

We are building 148 CR3s, possibly more, and we will use them during their service life as we used CR1 and CR2. There is always scope for more ant tank weapons systems, so I very much approve of the Brimstone truck. Of course Chally does more than defeat armour; it delivers shock action, it supports the Infantry in defence and offence, it can be used in a show of force to non-peer opponents. So we need tanks as well as Brimstone launchers. I am always surprised at the comment that the army must work out what it has to do;… Read more »

Agreed. The RN and RAF must be the areas the UK prioritises. The army 1 Armoured Division, max. The rest light and medium.

👍

Glad we are on the same page !

We have 227 tanks in-service and about 79 or 80 out of service (and probably stripped for spares). We can spare many more than 14 – should have sent 31 (to equip a UKR tank battalion) plus a few attrition reserve tanks, say 35. We don't need tanks for the Falklands, and they have little utility in defending the UK homeland (unless some enemy gets thousands of tanks ashore here, which seems unlikely).

👍🏻

Someone here once suggested storing some CH2 at MPA so if they tried to take it the Tank/s would just sit on the runway! 🤣

The Argies did something similar in 1982 in the rocks to the side of Stanley runway with the placement of Oerlikon GDF sysytems

That gun site was surrounded by bomb craters

Well they could drag race up and down it!

It isn't on the order of the US. We were persuading a reluctant US, not the other way around. I doubt they’d be sending Abrams if we hadn't announced sending Challengers first.

👍

I am not sure I agree with that. The timings of the various country decisions were too close to each other, to be anything other than a coordinated decision. I highly suspect there were behind closed door discussions involving the major NATO countries during which it was agreed to send tanks. The UK just announced it first, but someone had to be first and would come to when it was polictically best to do so in the various countries.

Right now the question is who will actually release the tanks first. Although didn't Canada already fly some over.

The US originally categorically said they would not send M1 Abrams as they were maintenance intensive and fuel inefficient. They were persuaded to change their mind.

They had a ready made excuse to stick to, do you really think the UK doing anything would persuade the US into doing anything? Not to mention the decision would have taken time to work through the polictical machine, and yet they announced same week. It's not realistic that it was a result of the UK.

I suspect we announced early as it happens to coincide with boris visits and no doubt sunak not wanting to be overshadowed by him, but I highly suspect it was all preagreed by the NATO powers.

What made the US do a U-turn on sending tanks if it wasn't embarrassment that the UK had taken the lead?

Are you kidding? Abrams is not the right tank for Ukraine and the legendary Chally with its bespoke armament that is really relevant in 2023 is not the answer either. The US was not the problem your European buddy Germany is.

The U.K. wouldn't be "left unarmed", we’d still have the rest of the army, not to mention RAF and RN.

Russia is no state to attack another country least if all one which is a member if the most powerful military alliance on the planet. It's fully occupied with Ukraine.

We didn't use tanks in ‘82 and wouldn't now use them to defend the Falklands. As it is the Argentines are in no state to even attempt to get to the Falklands.

And it's not on "the orders of the US".

BTW – your spelling and grammar are appalling

Maybe English isn't his/her first language?

Well you’d know all about that in Moscow…

Do tell which language uses commas and apostrophes interchangeably as he does?

Defending one of your fellow Putin-bots? Would explain why Micki is so petrified of Britain sending tanks to Ukraine, though for a different reason than he states.

As we know, Putin sent in his finest rapists in his original invasion of Ukraine. Am I thinking that with the huge losses he's taken he’ll be sending zoophiles and necrophiles next?

No idea. Hardly, just making a constructive comment. As to the tanks, the US seems to have pulled a blinder with theirs going to be last into the firing line. Mind you there does appear to be increasing reluctance to move beyond promises appearing in Europe. The belligerent ‘give me, give me’ attitude of Zelinsky doesn't seem to be doing him any favours. Again, no idea, but given the huge manpower and equipment losses that you and others here seem to believe that the Russians have sustained, what's left seems to be doing quite well against the Ukrainians at the… Read more »

You making a constructive comment? First you need to learn to tell the truth before you can make a constructive comment 🤷🏻‍♂️

Sorry to burst your conspiracy theory but the US is building the Abrams to send the Ukraine, whereas we and other countries are supplying from existing stocks. That's why they’ll arrive last.

That you describe sending waves and waves of untrained Russians charging to their deaths against fortified positions to gain a few meters as "doing well" just shows how utterly disastrously the Russian military has performed thus far.

I know you won't get this from the DM, but from most reports over the past days/weeks it seems to be a few 1000s of meters in multiple locations that the Russians are advancing, as well as primarily the Ukrainians that are dying or being injured or captured.

Ty, dolzhna byt’, shutish’

Can you put that into English please?

I won't here that from anyone other than Putin propaganda tools such as yourself because it's not true. Reports from by journalists from the front-line and from defectors from the Russian Army/ Wagner tell a completely different story. Now tell me, do you support Russian war-crimes because you • have warped ideological believe, eg you’re a fascist, etc? • you get off on the thoughts of Russian orcs committing torture and rape, maybe as a bonus they send you photos and videos of themselves doing it? • or you’re just desperate for money, no matter how sordid the source, and… Read more »

Whilst I understand what Russia is doing, I try to report here some of the aspects of the conflict that are reported differently elsewhere. This may be at odds with some posters beliefs or understanding of what is happening but it shouldn't make me an ‘orc’. Calling me that is just a reflection on your own inability to see both sides’ view.

How will you react to Russia finally overwhelming Bukhmut when you can't imagine that it could conceivably happen?

It's quite breathtaking, the sheer scale of you pontificating pomposity that you wrap around your disingenuousness. You should be a lawyer… don't misunderstand me, I don't mean that as a compliment, rather I’m thinking of the number of lawyers present at the Wannasee Conference. You’d be in good company with fellow fascists. As I stated several posts ago, I acknowledge that the Russians are gaining ground very slowly around Bukhmut. It's not the rout that we saw of Russian forgives from Hostomel, Kherson, and Kharkiv, but it is a slow push back of the Ukrainian defenders. It's perfectly possible that… Read more »

👍

Interesting view.

You do watch all the reports coming from various media outlets don't you? Is it all Ukr propaganda then? If it is they are doing a bloody good job of it don't you think? I mean according to Moscow it's all on schedule ,if it is at this rate it will take around 10 yrs or so to move a hundred miles let alone gain control Bakhmut.

The Russians have never set a schedule, just objectives. Ukriane are doing well but they started with a very large, well trained (in part by us), well equipped military re-equiped with $Bs of new stuff so they should be. How long they can keep it up is a different matter.

Well that's a lot different from your bullshit claims about the Ukr army at the beginning of this illegal war isn't it?

JIMK wrote: The Russians have never set a schedule, just objectives. Not exactly true, according to captured documents they set themselves a goal of 15days in which to capture Kyiv and knock out the government. JIMK wrote: Ukraine are doing well but they started with a very large, well trained (in part by us), well equipped military re-equipped with $Bs of new stuff so they should be. When Russia invaded the Ukraine fielded around 125K troops, around 35K naval troops and around 900K reservists. Under Operation ORBITAL the British trained from 2015 till 2021 (with a year out for C19)… Read more »

Oh! You and your facts! 👍

Not seen the 15 days before.

Your blunt claim depends in part on the definition of weapons. Plenty of US/NATO aircraft flying ‘stuff’ into Kiev before and during Jan 22. A pair of TuAF A-400 even got stranded there, maybe the TB-2 isn't a weapon.

JIMK wrote: Your blunt claim depends in part on the definition of weapons. Plenty of US/NATO aircraft flying ‘stuff’ into Kiev before and during Jan 22. Before the 17th of Jan 2022 and the first of 3 NLAW shipments (2000 units) nobody had gifted the Ukraine with advanced weaponry. The Uk set that ball rolling and other nations followed The US was the first and the first thing they did was allow other countries to send stinger and Javelins to the Ukraine Afterwards German Défense Minister Christine Lambrecht claimed Germany wants to "de-escalate" the crisis and will not supply weapons to… Read more »

Training that seems to be, hugely paying off. tactics vs sheer numbers.

They set a schedule for taking the government district of Kyiv in 72 hours and Ukraine in 15 days. At least that was what was in the plans of the Russian elite forces officers wiped out at Hostomel 😆

It was a comment by General Milley re 72 hours. Not seen the 15 days before. Got any references or links to that claim?

It wasn't just General Milley, though obviously because of who he is it's reported more widely. Glad you see you accept this as fact.

They did have a schedule and an objective. They failed on both.

Meanwhile back on planet earth🙄

Meanwhile back in Ukraine, and Russian armoured columns are getting completely whacked yet again 😂 https://edition.cnn.com/2023/02/13/europe/russia-ukraine-vuhledar-donetsk-fiasco-intl/index.html

Once again you display the sheer paucity of your knowledge and desperate deflection. If you really think that the mass casualty human wave attacks by Russian organised crime groups and conscripted army units around Bakhmut, Vuledhar etc are some exemplar of military feat of arms then you are even more delusional than I thought. Almost an entire brigade of Russian naval infantry with dozens of armoured vehicles were destroyed in that area. There is graphic footage on YouTube of these disastrous attempts by Russian commanders to advance. This, remember is almost a year in to the supposed special military operation… Read more »

Of course there are cock-ups but your estimation of the level of that one is way off. Your analysis is very selective and based on small incidents. The Russians, Wagner in particular, are using, from what I understand as a non army person, normal, albeit, light infantry tactics in the towns they have already taken like Soledar, plus those the will capture like Bakhmut.

I assume you are perfectly comfortable with the videos of Ukrainian soldiers murdering Russian PoW in cold blood?

Ha ha ha ! The Kremlin stooge accusing others of selective analysis!! The only thing you prove every day is that irony isn't dead. What you understand about light infantry tactics could be stored in an acorn cup. Much like the knowledge of your fellow Russian generals. Poor attempt at deflection in your last paragraph. A self evident truth is that if Russian forces weren't in Ukraine there would be no killings at all. Saying that however, did you see the reports on how the organised crime group beheaded and amputated limbs from wounded Ukrainian soldiers and sent images to… Read more »

Hey, thanks PC, promotion at last, now I’m a general.

I wouldn't crow about it too much. Russian generals tend not to last long on Ukrainian battlefields.

I note that you avoided the question about the rape, execution and abduction of Ukrainian civilians.

Vuledhar is so comical it made it onto CNN https://edition.cnn.com/2023/02/13/europe/russia-ukraine-vuhledar-donetsk-fiasco-intl/index.html

hum, other news sources, then the DM are stating the Russians are advancing slowly, but suffering massive losses.

The UK mod has said that Russia was taking the highest losses they have taken since the early part of the war over the last week. For which they don't appear to have gained much ground.

So? Its not as if the UK MoD doesn't have skin in the game.

We know who you are. RUSSIA DEFENCE FORUM Russian special military operation in Ukraine #36 – Page 18 https://www.russiadefence.net › … › CIS Military Issues 16 Jan 2023 — person JohninMK. Mon Jan 16, 2023 6:55 pm. by JohninMK. Soviet carton 1958, on the money. Russian special military operation in Ukraine #36 … LINK "UK Government funded expert research unveils new tactics of the Kremlin's large-scale disinformation campaign troll factory is targeting politicians and baiting audiences across a number of countries including the UK, South Africa and India. the operation has suspected links to Yevgeniy Prigozhin, founder of infamous bot-farm the Internet Research Agency UK-funded expert research… Read more »

JIMK wrote:

""As to the tanks, the US seems to have pulled a blinder with theirs going to be last into the firing line.""

I think you will find that is more to do with sending M1A2 tanks which are not fitted with the depleted uranium armour that all the USs M1 tanks come with

To be honest, I too play fast and loose with punctuation, Sean. That is due to my wanting those marks to work for me, not me for them!

MBT in Falklands is a waste of time. The ground is too soft and Argentina are in no state to pick a fight, even with the severally depleted U.K. forces. The best way to deter China from attacking Taiwan is ensure Russia fails. Plus the size of the force to take Taiwan will rival operation Overlord. The invasion force will be seen , long before it deploys and I guarantee the sea between Taiwan and China will have several US and U.K. hunter killer waiting, loaded for bear. The best use of our Challenger 2 tanks right now is is… Read more »

The fundemental problems in Taiwan are political and time. Politics because the party that wants to do a deal with China is growing in strength against the party that doesn't and time since the next election is in November 2024. There is a chance that the situation could be solved peacefully rather than another slaughter like Ukraine.

I beg to differ. Best way to avoid another slaughter is for China to respect Taiwan's rights and give up their desires. Same as the best way for Russia to end the slaughter in Ukraine is withdraw fully from internationally recognised Ukraine sovereign territory.

Of course, Russia had no option but to invade Ukraine…

Correct. Very perceptive of you.

Yeah just like every 5 year old throwing a hissy fit tantrum while screaming "look what you made me do"

I bet you think Peter Sutcliffe was a nice guy who was simply provoked, repeatedly, by different women…

You may as well say Hitler had no option but to occupy the Rhineland, Saarland, to unite with Austria…..

JIMK wrote: ""The fundemental problems in Taiwan are political and time. Politics because the party that wants to do a deal with China is growing in strength against the party that doesn't and time since the next election is in November 2024."" There are 2 main political coalitions in Taiwan: Pan-Green coalition (in power) Pan-Blue coalition (opposition) Neither of the two groups support Chinese unification, whilst Pan-Blue did in the past its current stance is the Republic of China instead of the People's Republic of China is the legitimate government of China, and argues that reunification is… Read more »

God you’re pushing the bullshit from the Chinese Communist Party too 🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️

Next you’ll be trying to sell holiday homes in North Korea 😂🤣😂

🤣🤣 He's just keeping his options open for Russia becoming a client state of China.

The Challenger 2 is obsolete. There is a reason they are belatedly being replaced by a purely stop gap vehicle.

Far from obsolete comrade

Definition Obsolete- "no longer produced or used; out of date"

CH2 is being upgraded to CH3 so technically still in production. Well CH2 its still used. Old yes but hardly out of date.

So by your rational and using the definition of obsolete… The F22 is obsolete because its no longer produced…

Go back to your comics and leave the adults alone🙄

Good F ing grief 🙈 this is woeful propaganda if the MOD think statements like ‘and their deployment to Ukraine represents a significant enhancement to the country's military capabilities.’ Is gonnae fool those of us who can still think for ourselves then they are Smokin …..🤪 How about informing the public to the truth. The reality of what's happening ? Where's the info on the battle at Bakhmut ? A meat grinder of death and destruction . Ukraine has burned through 14 brigades so far with estimated 90% casualties in the battle . To put into perspective the British army… Read more »

Not really surprising given the number of professional people who are part of Ukraines army, They need more , a full battalion plus spares and we need to think how we are going to build replacement , because one message from Ukraine is that our Armed forces are way to small in every respect!!

Our armed forces have been too small since the 90s.

I do not disagree

A genuine question, other than the 5mph faster and fact that as the common barrel there is more munitions for the leopard than the C2, given that the C2 appears to be better armoured, why is there all the love for the Leopard as the best tank?

Yes it has sold more and so has had more updates, but why such the worldwide love in for the Leopard over an upgraded c2?

Well for a start Leopard as a commander sight that can search for targets… And the tests results in Koweit were a disaster for Ch2 vs Abrams.

I take it you mean Kuwait? If so they are using M1A2 so hardly a disaster on its testing was it🙄?

Reliability mostly,. But i just verified and it was long ago in 1992 so no so relevant for today.

CR2 didn't even exist in 1992…

CR1 and CR2 are completely different tanks.

It existed but was not in service. Were prototypes.

Put this in Google: KUWAITIS SAY GD’S M1A2 OUTPERFORMED VICKERS’ CHALLENGER 2 BY A WIDE MARGIN.

My source was an US Army report.Challenger did not even finished the firing demonstration. Something broke.

So they compared a prototype against a tank that had been in production for a decade. 🤷🏻‍♂️ While that would have been necessary when making a purchasing decision at the time, something like reliability would be completely different to a finished design from an established production line. That reports refers to mobility only, and there the M1A2 would still outperform a CR2 and any other tank, due to the use of a turbine as a power plant. However it also means the CR2 has a longer range both on and off road, despite it carrying less fuel. So it's swings… Read more »

I’d take the extra range anyday. And the CH2 is no slouch – from a warm start ( common in most realistic combat situations) it can out drag the Leclerc ( and is much cheaper too 🥰).

Largely due to CR2s excellent suspension. Its probably as fast as Leo2 cross country and only a whisker behind M1.

Correction – Wiki reports that M1 Abrams and CR2 have identical cross country speeds.

No one forced Challenger 2 to compete. If it was there was because Vickers thought they would not made a bad show like it did.

I assume Vickers were hoping to win an order from the Kuwaitis so gambled by submitting a prototype. Understandable on their part, but you can't slag off later production models based on the performance of a prototype 🤷🏻‍♂️

"But i just verified and it was long ago in 1992 so no so relevant for today."

The lack of independent thermal commander sight is still relevant.

https://www.tanknet.org/index.php?/topic/47991-m1-abrams-vs-challenger-2-vs-leopard-2-vs-leclerc/

Not really, I doubt their opponents have any at all fitted to their Soviet era tanks.

Given tanks are periodically updated, unless there is a fundamental issue with design kits design, any new feature added to a competing tank can be added to that tank too. So with CR3 the Challenger is getting new sights amongst other things. 🤷🏻‍♂️

Kuwait? As in Gulf War 1? We used CR1s, not CR2s. What was this disaster? CR1s accounted for over 300 enemy AFVs with no loss and gained the world record for longest range tank kill.

Read what i wrote above. I put a phrase for anyone to search in Google.

There are a lot more Leopards( I do wish our American cousins would learn to pronounce it properly) l, they are marginally lighter, ammo and spares are more readily available, it is considered an easier tank to learn to fight/drive. The Challenger is a snipper. It is considered to be more accurate with the gun and a better fire control. But fractionally lacks the punch of the smooth bore. As one ex U.K. tank commander put it. If you want to take on a Challenger 2, bring 15 t72, you will loose half before you even know it is there.… Read more »

Ukriane is a different battlefield in almost all aspects from Iraq. There is a good chance that the multi tank on tank encounter you mention may never happen. The best weapons against tanks now are weapons they can't see coming and can do nothing at all about. So submunitions carried on rockets or especially smart artillery, with drones directing the attacks would be top of the list. Next suicide drones followed by attack helicopters launching at up to 20km range. Finally, vehicles on the ground launching ATGM at 8km range would be out there too before a tank got a… Read more »

This from the man (team?) that had Putin's Black Sea Fleet's flagship tied up alongside in Sevastopol when it was at the bottom of said sea.

And a very fine artificial reef it is making,

Yup, I got that wrong.

Meanwhile, the BSF R&D operation got their new sea drone right when they struck the bridge south of Odessa a few days ago.

You have shed any pretence of being an honest broker seeking ‘truth’. You have sided with thugs, rapists and war criminals. This is objectively morally disgusting but at least it isn't lying through your teeth.

Along with your prediction about Russia not invading Ukraine.

And your prediction that Russia was about to advance from Kherson and seize Odesa right before the Russians were routed from Kherson.

And…

Actually rather than list your cock-ups (only a Russian could make so many) it's easier to list what you’ve got right…

nothing, zero, nada… 😂

Interesting considering the reported tank on tank action going on in Ukraine and why the Ukraine forces have been pleading for Western MBTs

A few posts ago in another thread you claimed no knowledge of armoured tactics! What's changed now? Another briefing from your handlers perhaps.

Are you, or indeed anyone here, disputing that what I described is the reality of what a tank faces in war now?

Nope but what differs NATO doctrine from the Orcs is actually having the tactics to help mitigate the problem! Not just drive down a road and hope no one notices.

Tanks have always faced different and new threats, they adapt, TTPs adapt as does active and passive defences. But as a civvie at the age of 76 years, living in MK, you can only read and guess what others say, as you have no experience on the subject matter, therefore regurgitate others views. Oh and as a troll, you don't have a say in what you write.

"briefing" being an electric cattle prod to his briefs for screwing up so often on here 😏

JohnInMK is without doubt the Frank Spencer of propagandists 😆

Clearly, if being a "propagandist" here was my role I would have been fired a long time ago. So its a good job it isn't.

You clearly don't understand the role of propaganda if you think that. These days changing minds is secondary, a bonus. The primary purpose is to muddy the waters between fact and fiction, to cause uncertainty and doubt. With your crap about "trying to present facts from a multitude of sources" you do that, mixing in the occasional fact with the crap to make it more believable.

"Smart artillery"?!?!

The Russians only have "dumb artillery" to match their commanders.

Your ignorance surprises me. You seem to have not heard of the Krasnopol.

If Russian artillery is so smart, why does it hit hospitals, kindergartens, schools, shops, and theatres, all containing non-combatants??

I guess you’re confessing the Russians do commit war-crimes by deliberately targeting these targets. Your handlers won't be happy…

And the results against the latest marks of Abrams that have been actually upgraded would be what against the mighty t72?

Mighty t72. 😂😂😂😂

Btw your comment about HMS Vanguard is total BS. Yes there is an issue, no it doesn't directly affect the reactor and she takes her place in the at sea rota!

E wrote:

And the results against the latest marks of Abrams that have been actually upgraded would be what against the mighty t72?

Somebody has been knocking out cartoons regards the invasion of Ukraine with the main Russian character named T72-Chan. I think this one sums up your quote to a T:

"Mighty T72" is an oxymoron…

You’ll no doubt have to look that up in a dictionary Esteban 😂

Ha ha ha haaaaaa mighty T72, oh dear your actual agenda is now showing, as you normally only slag down the UK, but now your slipping into the anti-west agenda.

OT: T-14 Armata was cancelled in November-December last year. The engine choice was a disaster and the current engines of T-72/T-80/T-90 don't fit.

Do you have references for those claims as work seems to be progressing on testing them.

And T-15 Armata? I thought the IFV shared same engine as the MBT.

The T-14 is 10 tonnes heavier than the T-90, I’d imagine using trying to use that engine would result in very degraded performance.

According to The Moscow Times the cost of the war in the Ukraine has required the urgent diversion of funds resulting in the halting of a large number of new weapons projects, not just T14. https://www.moscowtimes.eu/2022/11/11/20-trillionov-na-veter-krupneishaya-v-rossiiskoi-istorii-gosprogramma-proizvodstva-oruzhiya-ostanovlena-posle-provalov-v-ukraine-a26303

One of the objectives of the Armata family is to share as many components, inc engines, drive trains, tracks etc to reduce support and logistics issues. In particular, there is a new X-12 cylinder engine as opposed to the V-12 in the T-90 etc.

The Moscow Times operates out of Amsterdam not Moscow, which may or may not influence its editorial policy.The war has certainly changed Russia's priorities with many plants now operating 3 shifts. With the increased price of much of their exports there is no clear indication that they are short of money.

Dream on.

Yes The Moscow Times reporting out of a democracy with the rule of law does influence editorial policy. It means it's journalists don't get prosecuted and imprisoned for reporting the truth, which would happen if it was in Russia.

And it wasn't an editorial, it was a news report, there's a difference between the two… though a propagandist like yourself wouldn't understand that.

Sean, do you know this journal?

https://www.baltictimes.com/together_we_will_be_able_to_stand_against_russian_imperialism_-_karins/

No I didn't, thanks for the heads up. 👍🏻

I think it's good to sample diverse international news sources to get an accurate picture of what's happening in the world and different perspectives on it.

Its a paper that accurately reflects the politics of the area.

FFS desperation and more desperation.

You mean "many plants operating 0 shifts" due to lack of parts to build anything with 😆

That's why they’re having to beg Iran and North Korea for their leftovers kit

Some wishful thinking there.

No evidence of anything coming from NK. The drones from Iran seem to have been upgraded in Russian production with more advanced munitions.

More comedy from Putin's man in MK 😂

JIMK wrote:

""No evidence of anything coming from NK""

Sat photos taken in November revealed that a train was sent to North Korea on the 18th by Wagner, where it was loaded with containers and returned back into Russia on the 19th.

JIMK wrote:

""The drones from Iran seem to have been upgraded in Russian production with more advanced munitions.""

Russia hasnt started producing any Iranian drones yet. They (Iran and Russia) only found a place to build their factory last month

Regards the upgrading of Iranian drones, the only improvement found so far, is the addition of small fragmentation cube to the warhead in a very ad hoc manner.

Oh my……ha ha ha ha come on my fav troll, one of the objectives of Russian armour in general is to share its components with both the Ukrainians and the sky! Any condemnation of Putins illegal invasion yet…..nope as that simple lack of answer confirms your controlled troll status.

Teamwork makes the dreamwork and communication is the key and very happy to continue x

I made a comment up the thread a bit about the destruction by the BSF, using as as yet unseen weapon, a sea borne drone, of the rail bridge over the mouth of the River Dniester south of Odessa. They had attacked it previously in April and August last year with less success. This disrupts the strategically vital supply route into Ukraine from Romania via Moldova. It is the route favoured by the French/Italians and other countries using the Mediterranean, including the US with its stockpiles in the Balkans. Also by merchant ships carrying arms etc up the Black Sea… Read more »

Well the Orcs for the last year have been trying to destroy the logistic and power systems!I’m sure that the Ukr will use their initiative and overcome the problem as they seen to manage to do quite well.

JIMK wrote: ""This disrupts the strategically vital supply route into Ukraine from Romania via Moldova. It is the route favoured by the French/Italians and other countries using the Mediterranean, including the US with its stockpiles in the Balkans. "" Take a step back and look at the lay of the land you describe. You claim that the Main Supply route (MSR) from Italy into the Ukraine is from the north of Romania into Odessa and cite the strike on Pidyomnyy Mist of an example of how the Russians have targeted that supply route. Have another look : 1) There are no… Read more »

Another thumping dished out to our resident Creeping Thing. If I were a referee I would have to stop this contest. You are simply too good.

Edit: Remove ‘Slovakia’ serial 3, second line, 5th word Replace with: ‘Slovenia’

1 The R/UA border is quite short and convoys can cross by taking a short detour through Moldova, crossing the Prut rather than the Danube. 2 As i postulated, maybe the Russians have decided that watching was no longer enough. 3 I thought that Hungary is not allowing resupply to Ukraine through their territory.

I would suggest that it is not stupidity that is forcing the use of these route, its necessity.

JIMK wrote:: ""The R/UA border is quite short and convoys can cross by taking a short detour through Moldova, crossing the Prut rather than the Danube."" 1) Whilst the Eastern border between the 2 countries is short at 103 miles, it may as well be 1000 miles as that border dissects the Danube delta, which is marsh land and flood plains. 2) I’m really surprised that you mentioned Moldova, why am I surprised? Because you know not of the Political situation between Moldova and Russia. You see last week the entire Moldova's pro-western government resigned. Why did it resign? Because of the… Read more »

JIMK wrote: ""I thought that Hungary is not allowing resupply to Ukraine through their territory." They changed tack in June 2022, I quote: Hungarians are ready to pass through their territory all the assistance provided by other countries to Ukraine, including military, said Deputy Minister of Foreign Economy and Foreign Affairs of Hungary Levente Magyar The issue with Hungary (and Poland) wasn't with the Ukraine, rather it is with the EU which fined both countries (€7 billion for Hungary and €36 billion for Poland last Feb due to a backsliding of Democratic standards) Which is why both countries have… Read more »

JIMK wrote: ""I would suggest that it is not stupidity that is forcing the use of these route, its necessity."" When you plan a large vehicle move, you have to organise rest stops, security, first aid, food, refuelling, recovery, mechanics. There is no point having static rest stops (Known in the military as Harbour areas) if they are targeted. Which is what we see happening in Syria, Iraq, and what we saw in Sudan all by Israel when it comes to arms shipments by Iran. To that end you keep your large shipments well out of harms way and… Read more »

Oh dear, handed your arse yet again by our resident arse issuer Farouk…..

Not that much of a surprise, all things considered. Ukrainians are on an essentially steep learning curve. On the steep learning curve bit, I’m very interested to see how the Ch2 performs in an arena of significant air denial. I somehow think we will fare ok, but ‘traditional wisdom’ would likely not offer you good odds. No doubt soon to appear here, will be the announcement that Ch3 is ahead of time and on budget. However, that evidently means we’re just at the point of building them. I was wrong to have thought we may already have been moving down… Read more »

Its not that the RN or RAF took Army money away, its that the Army spent/spaffed theirs away so badly with nothing to show for it. FRES/ Boxer (original) /Warrior Upgrade/ Watchkeeper/AS 90 you could go on and on. The Army needs to decide what it wants to do because at present it really doesn't know. Carriers are not only good for projecting into the Far east. In the GIUK gap or in the high north a CSG will control a lot of area below , on the Surface and above it. Thats a major headache for the team around… Read more »

Yes, it does seem obvious, GB. It's more than a shame that Army Brass seem so reluctant to openly confront they’re waste on the public stage, as far as I’m aware. Far too much effort put in to slating others, to the point of offence, and thus a symptom of the malaise to many observers. Rgs

It is said that the army lost £5bn from the FRES project to help fund the carriers. Agree about the army spaffing a way a lot of money – incredible and ridiculous – no AFVs ordered in 20 years.

I don't think it is a good idea myself although the special armour is off still they weigh 70 tons a Russian anti tank weapon could not miss it they would be so slow!🕕

Special armour is off. What does that mean?

Interesting comment on Wiki that CH2 needs both a set of Metric and Imperial tools. Metric for the turret and Imperial for the hull